ADVICE PLEASE FROM CTF TO CTP

GOOD DAY!!!

MGA BOSSING PLEASE COMMENT AND ADVISE


BAGO PALANG UNG EAGLE RIP NAMIN AND OUR BOSSES WANT TO KNOW IF WE GO TO CTP, IS IT IDEAL FOR NOW TO SWITCH TO CTP AND WHAT ARE WE BENEFITS IF WE GO CTP? WHAT BEST CTP NOW OUT IN THE MARKETS? AND WHAT PREPARATION ARE WE GOING TO DO?

PLEASE COMMENT

THANKS

Hi Rands. For me pare-pareho lang ang CTP. Ang dots na na po-produce ng Agfa, kaya din ng Screen. Magkakatalo ka lang kung ano ang light source mo....and also kung ano ang plate type mo.

Para sa production niyo, mas maigi kung mag violet CTP kayo na polymer ang plates. Mabilis siya and matagal masira ang laser mo kasi mahaba ang buhay ng violet. Wag kang magpapaniwala sa mga magbebenta sayo ng Thermal kasi short run lang kayo. Mahal ang operating cost ng Thermal.

What you need to concentrate on is NOT on your CTP device but the workflow that you will be using. Ito ang pinaka-importante Rands. Gusto niyo ba RIP muna tapos pair? Or ipag-pares muna ang mga pahina tapos i-render?

Once again, mag-ingat ka ulit sa mga magbebenta ng mga modules na di niyo naman kailangan. Just pick what you need.

Contact me offline para masuyod natin kung ano ang kakailanganin niyo and kung ang hindi.

Rands, please show this to your bosses. For me migrating to CTP will not increase your quality. Your machines need more care pare.

Larry

I agree with Larry. CtP will not improve your quality.

A few years ago, the owner/publisher of a daily newspaper in Manila told me that he was planning to buy a CtP. He said that he wanted to match the print quality of Enquirer and Star; and, since both leading daily's were using CtP, he also had to get a CtP.

I advised him that going CtP would have no effect on quality; because he was printing 65 lpi newsprint on his old web machines. I told him that Star and Enquirer needed CtP's high plate output capability because of the large number of plates which they had to print per issue.

My final advise was for him to continue using his mint condition imagesetter, which was capable of supplying his plates on time; and spend the 8 to 10 million pesos on rehabilitating his web presses.

Actually, they were able to improve the quality a lot by adjusting their color settings in PS and adjusting the images to compensate for the deficiencies of the web presses.

Newspaper publishing is a financially difficult business. Investment on equipment will have to be studied carefully; and money should be spent where they are most needed.

By the way, you can trust my advise because I am a dealer of CtP. Hehe.

randy wrote:

WHAT ARE WE BENEFITS IF WE GO CTP?

1. Your Cycle Time will improve. The moment you receive the pairing pages you can expose all 4 plates (panorama) under 10 minutes. If you have multiple jobs on the queue then you can expect plates to come out of the processor every 1.5 minutes....even less than that depending on the imager.

2. Your CTP can act as a profit center in the morning when there are no newspapers to print. That is if you get an imager capable of exposing newspaper and commercial resolutions and also on different plate sizes.

3. You will have lower dot gain on your prints.

Quote :

WHAT BEST CTP NOW OUT IN THE MARKETS?

Please.....don't go for any Thermal CTP!!! If you're printing more than 300K...or if you want to print with XM screening....fine...then it makes sense to go with Thermal. You will use an oven to make your thermal plates print longer runs.

But it's hard to tell which is the best. I guess the best CTP for me is an imager that gives me less headaches. Maybe a better question to ask is: "Who's the best among the many CTP vendors?" In newspaper production vendor support is crucial. They should be willing to come to you in the wee hours of the morning should your CTP unit decide to be uncooperative.

Quote :

AND WHAT PREPARATION ARE WE GOING TO DO?

Prepare your budget...you will need lots and lots because not only will you have to pay for the costly machine, the workflow....but also for the spare parts kit. Only a fool will invest in a multi-million peso imaging system without thinking of the necessary spare parts. Imagine not being able to print your newspaper just because of one tiny spring? Of course that is unacceptable! So include in your budget the spare parts kit.

Through your vendor you can visit their existing installations. While on site ask the CTP guys operating the machine their common problems, headaches, reasons for breakdowns, response time of the service engineer, what are the consumables, spare parts availability and how long does it take to ship. Ask the dealer how much those spare parts cost.

Oh, by the way, if the CTP guys are happy with their machine....and vendor, you may also want to acquire exactly the same imager so you won't have problems with spare parts. This is strategic planning.....you have yourselves a backup just in case you may need the other to print your jobs if your CTP is down.

Another thing, usually the cost for CTP training is free. Chances are your CTP vendor also supplies you the plates so they're making lots of money from the plates you order. Remember you're a daily newspaper and you use lots of printing plates every single night.

For training, better send your prepress head....and 1 maintenance engineer to attend both operations and basic maintenance training.

Hope this helps.

GOOD DAY!!

SIR, I HIGHLY APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS AND ADVICES I THINK I GONNA SHOW IT TO MY BOSS AND THEY DECIDE IF WE GO OR NOT MIGRATE TO CTP

SIR LARRY THANKS FOR BEING SUPPORTIVE

Randy,

For your needs I think you may want to consider Agfa Arkitex Workflow. Since you already have a powerful Eagle RIP the modules you will be needing will be as follows:

Agfa Pair
Agfa Client
Agfa Plate Builder
Agfa Producer
Agfa NewsDrive or PrintDrive

You may want to keep your Accuset imagesetter as a backup or to use it for your black pages. You can program the software na pag black pages sa Accuset siya pupunta. Tapos the color pages naman sa CTP.

Kahit anong CTP pwede mong gamitin kahit hindi Agfa basta tumatanggap siya ng 1-bit TIFF. Kung Agfa CTP you will need NewsDrive or PrintDrive to drive your CTP. Kung iba naman ang CTP, baka iba ang driver na gagamitin ninyo.

The reason why ito ni re-recommend ko kasi madali siyang gamitin. Of course madami din diyan na iba na okay din. I think Alex has another option in mind na ginamit niyo dati to print Herald Tribune. Mukhang okay din yung workflow na yun.

Kung kukuha ka ng CTP for newspaper production only, go for flatbed. Kung gusto mong commercial and newspaper....external or internal drum CTP. Get a CTP that is using a violet light source and also Photopolymer plates.

Basta tandaan mo pare-pareho lang ang CTP lalo na kung pang diyaryo lang ang output. Kunin niyo yung pinaka-mura....basta may support and spare parts.

Sa akin lang ito pare. Of course, others may prefer a different option.

We heard it from the respectable experts, Sir Larry and Presstech. It is easy to find CTP equipments, but not service support and spare part availability. As for AGFA, meron pa bang reseller sa Pilipinas? Sometimes the Learning curve is sometimes neglected. You can not ask a taxi driver to drive a koesineg car. The prepapration should always be considered after decision of acquiring a ctp has been made. The blame is on the machine when the operator lacks of knowledge, right?

Long time no see, Billy. Ano na balita sayo men? Epson ka pa rin ba? Wala na bang reseller ng Agfa diyan? Ano'ng nangyari? Teka....ang dami kong tanong. Anyway, madami pa namang magagandang CTP diyan besides Agfa.

May kilala ako dito taga diyaryo.....yung CTP nila free-of-cost. Yun nga lang nakatali sila sa supplier ng plantsa for ilang years. Malakas kasi silang gumamit ng plates.

Di ko sure kung saan kinuha ng Velprint yong Sublima nila. Apogee yata yong workflow SW nila. Well, ganun na talaga labanan, FOC or at cost yong CTP pero may minimum plates ka. pwede ring 5 years to pay no DP with minimum plates pa rin. Ang marketing strategy is go CTP to improve the quality of your offset he he. It is good thing, techy guys like you are giving good advices.

ask ko lang po bout dun ctp and ctf printing natin. madami na po ba mga printer meron n2 sa pinas and what the dis-advantages and advantages nito tnx po.

billy wrote:

Ang marketing strategy is go CTP to improve the quality of your offset he he.

Yan ang maling akala. Dito ang daming naka CTP, naka top of the line din ang workflow nila....pero quality parang letterpress. hehehe....

vincentheat16 wrote:

ask ko lang po bout dun ctp and ctf printing natin. madami na po ba mga printer meron n2 sa pinas and what the dis-advantages and advantages nito tnx po.

Ang alam ko madami na din naka CTP sa Pinas. Ang advantage ng CTP is mas madali mong i-meet ang mga rush jobs.

Ang disadvantage naman nito ay mas malaki ang gastos mo pag nakapag-plate ka na bago niyo nakita ang problema. Kaya dapat kukuha tayo ng tao na marunong sa color management, linearization, preflight and pdf/x.

Pero kahit minsan wala akong nakitang disadvantage sa CTP. Well, meron din pala. Magastos sa kuryente kasi naka-on ang aircon mo palagi. Lalo na if you're working with photopolymer plates, ang operating temperature mo nasa area ng 18 to 23 degrees. Otherwise kung pabago-bago ang temperature sa kwarto mo, pabago bago din ang output mo.

Naku Sir Larry baka hindi na bumili sila Randy ng platesetter kapag nalaman nila presyo ng nirecommend mo na Arkitex, hehehe.

Randy,

Wag ka masyado mag-alala sa workflow. Yung workflow is to make your life easier but you can live without it. Expensive ang workflow. Tanong mo rin yung supplier nyo, baka naka-nakapackage na dyan maski at most 4-ups. Yung libro, tirahin nyo na lang sa Indesign, hehehe. Pero pwede nyo rin naman tirahin sa Indesign yung paper nyo. Kapag super dami na trabaho nyo, yan mag-workflow na kayo, hehehe.

Check mo kung anong software package ang kasama ng platesetter.

Alex

[quote="randy"]GOOD DAY!!!

MGA BOSSING PLEASE COMMENT AND ADVISE


BAGO PALANG UNG EAGLE RIP NAMIN AND OUR BOSSES WANT TO KNOW IF WE GO TO CTP, IS IT IDEAL FOR NOW TO SWITCH TO CTP AND WHAT ARE WE BENEFITS IF WE GO CTP? WHAT BEST CTP NOW OUT IN THE MARKETS? AND WHAT PREPARATION ARE WE GOING TO DO?

PLEASE COMMENT

BENEFITS:
1) Faster throughput and job turnaround.
2) You can improve on quality dramatically depending on the choice of CTP you are going to invest into.
3) Reduced printing cost (labor and materials)

PREPARATIONS:
1) Improve on your proofing workflow system. This means that you have to "master" the art of content proofing. What you see on the original file must come out the same on plate to avoid costly errors on plate.
2) Devise a system flow from page layout to plate output.

http://www.polygraph-gb.de/ctp/VIOVSTHM.pdf

Summary of Laser Technology - Violet vs. Thermal

Violet and thermal are the dominant technologies currently in use in platesetting. There is much debate in the industry about the merits and flaws of each technology. We have discussed both technologies throughout the preceding sections of this paper, but have not directly addressed the frequent question of “which is better - violet or thermal”. Of course, this question is impossible to answer. The real question is not which is better, but which is better for each company’s particular needs, budget, and future. The answer to this depends on what are the main concerns of each company in acquiring a CTP system. These possible concerns include quality, initial investment, safelight requirements, throughput, run-length, consumables cost and availability, environmental impact, and maintenance requirements. Therefore, we are not going to say one technology is better than the other, but rather provide information on the pros and cons of each technology for each of these issues.

Quality:
The main argument against violet is that output quality is subpar compared with thermal systems. However, this is not the case in all situations. It is true that thermal plates are capable of producing ultra-high quality with line screens exceeding 300 lpi, which violet plates cannot do. But this is not a requirement for the vast majority of users. For the vast majority of applications, silver-based plates imaged by violet lasers produce output comparable in quality to output from thermal platesetters. The other choice for violet is the photopolymer-based plate. Although historically, photopolymer plates have been judged to be inferior to silver and thermal from a quality perspective, recent advances in photopolymer technology has made available improved quality that meets or exceeds the requirement of commercial printers requiring a superior quality product.
Initial Investment: In general, violet platesetting equipment is less expensive to purchase than thermal equipment. Safelight Requirements: Violet plates are light sensitive, and hence require handling in safelight conditions, however autoload options available on many machines can minimize this requirement. Violet plates have an advantage over previous visible laser technologies in that they can be used with yellow safelights instead of the red lights required by green sensitive plates. Thermal plates have a further advantage over violet in that they are not light sensitive and hence do not require safelighting. They can be handled in daylight conditions with no adverse effects.

Throughput:
Violet is generally faster, and particularly so where only low resolution is required, as output speed on an internal drum device is directly proportional to the resolution setting. The lower the resolution that is required, the faster the machine will image. However, new technologies in the thermal drum arena, such as laser power, expanded quantity of diodes, and GLV technology, are providing considerable improvement in the throughput of thermal platesetters. Run-Length: Thermal plates offer the longest run lengths possible, but to achieve this, they must be baked. Unbaked run lengths for thermal plates varies among the many products available on the market, from 150,000 to 400,000. When baked, thermal plates can produce up to 1 to 2 million impressions, depending on the plate type. Processless thermal plates offer run lengths of 100,000 impressions.

Silver-based plates are capable of producing in the range of 350,000 impressions. Photopolymer plate run length varies among manufacturers, from 200,000 to 400,000. These plates can also be baked to yield up to 1 million impressions.
Consumables Cost and Availability: Considering the many competing consumables manufacturers, and the many factors that are involved in the manufacturers pricing that each customer receives, consumables cost is impossible for us to quantify. The type of plate and chemistry required is just one factor. Other factors are the volume of plates being purchased, presenting negotiating opportunities for the purchaser, whether any additional equipment is being purchased that would allow the manufacturer to offer a “consumables deal”, etc. We recommend that each buyer check with their suppliers for pricing as it applies to their particular situation. One concern that buyers should keep in mind is the number of manufacturers for each plate type. To our knowledge, only Agfa (Lithostar) and Heidelberg (Saphira) manufacture silver-based plates. There is a wider variety of photopolymer plates available, including those from Agfa (N91), Fuji (Brillia), Konica (Duros), Kodak (VioletPrint), and Escher Grad (EG-HRV1). Except Escher Grad, all these manufacturers produce at least one thermal plate, while some (Agfa, Kodak and Fuji) have half a dozen varieties of thermal plates available. In addition to the major manufacturers, there are a variety of other producers (such as Southern Lithoplate) of thermal plates as well. Clearly, consumers have far more choices among thermal plates, including processless plates, than plates for violet lasers.

Environmental Impact:
Silver-based violet plates have the worst impact for the environment. Silver is a pollutant, and must be removed from waste chemistry before its disposal. Photopolymer plates do not have this issue, but they do require chemical processing. Thermal plates are silver-free, but most require chemical processing. However, there are also processless thermal plates available which eliminate the need for chemicals entirely, thereby providing the least environmental impact. Currently processless plates are not available for violet platesetters. At Ipex 2006, Agfa previewed their violet processless plate prototype, but they are still not available on the market. Furthermore, this plate will probably require a minimum of a 30 mW laser in order to image.

At Drupa 2008, both Agfa and Fuji introduced a violet processless plate. Agfa, it appears, is restricting their plate to the newspaper industry initially. The availability of information at Drupa was limited, indicating their offering will not be available immediately. Fuji, however, distributed a brochure with full disclosure of the specifications inherent in their product. It appears that Fuji’s ProV plate will be available in the waning months of 2008. Maintenance Requirements: It appears that maintenance cost for violet-based platesetters will be considerably lower than thermal over the life of the equipment. In violet equipment, there is one laser diode to replace. In thermal machines, there are multiple diodes that may at some point require replacement, or in some cases, multiple diodes that cannot be replaced individually as they are contained in a single very expensive head. Not only are lasers less expensive to replace, they are longer lived in violet machines. Furthermore, another cost associated with thermal is the maintenance of the plate clamps and registration punch required for external drum thermal devices, which are not used on the internal drum violet platesetters. On the Screen PT-Rs, for example, it is recommended that the plate clamps be replaced every 30,000 plate loading cycles (depending on model), at $2,700 for the clamps, plus the cost of the service call. The registration punch requires maintenance every 10,000 plate cycles. These punches do not necessarily have to be replaced at every 10,000 plates. Rather, they need to be removed, cleaned, oiled, and inspected for damage. If replacement punches are required, the price is in the range of $5,000 to $6,000 plus the cost of the service call. Internal drum technology does require a high-speed spinner motor that can fail, but this failure rate is impossible to quantify and may not occur under normal operating conditions.

Violet silver-based plates do have one issue that purchasers should keep in mind. There is considerable debris from these plates that is removed during processing, leading to an accumulation of a purple “sludge” in the processor. This sludge stains easily and requires attention on a weekly basis. With silver-based plate, users will run into more processor maintenance by the operator than with other technologies.

Summary
Clearly there are pros and cons for each technology. Thermal technology offers the user quality output, user- friendliness, long run lengths, and a wide variety of plate choices, all with minimized environmental impact. The downside of thermal is the high acquisition cost and high maintenance cost, and less speed versus similarly priced violet devices. Violet users benefit from this technology’s lower acquisition and maintenance cost, and high throughput. Unfortunately, violet does not offer the same range of plate choices, including no currently available processless plates. Violet users also have to make the choice between higher quality silver plates which have significant environmental impact, or photopolymer plates that do not contain silver but will require a special processor with preheat capability. The question you must answer, is the considerably reduced cost involved with violet technology worth it, given the quality, environmental, and plate choices that must be made? Can the extra acquisition and maintenance cost of a thermal platesetter be justified? It is up to each buyer to decide. The pros and cons will have to be weighed by each individual buyer to decide which technology is the right choice for their situation.

.................................

Boss Larry is Right regarding Newspaper printing!....Violet is the Best!

But still i'm wondering in many countries they prefer using newer technology
focused on Thermal even though maintenance is very costly its, because support
is very important unlike violet manufacturer support which is the first to make CTP system
is also switching newer system...

Explanation: Thermal gives you a huge range of plate options though - especially with an "open" system like the ones Kodak sells. There are many dozens of thermal plate manufacturers out there, giving you a huge choice of suppliers. We have a standard program to qualify any plate that will technically work - as far as I know, that's unique in the industry. Cost wise is lesser in plate consumables.

and one thing i noticed we are the ones using negative plates which other countries even China
says they used this negative system 6 years ago. So why not we switch to positive much better
quality and costs less.

Rene - Makati City
585-3430

Hi Sir Rene. Thank you very much for sharing the Summary of Laser Technology - Violet vs. Thermal report. Ganda siyang basahin kasi unbiased ito eh.

To answer your question why many companies offshore prefer a thermal system, madaming reasons bakit ganito ang naging decision nila. Sa mga packaging companies importante ang thermal kasi they need to bake their plates to print long run. Others go with thermal because they would like to print FM or XM.

But a number of printing plants that I've visited go with this technology just because their competitors are using thermal. Karamihan sa kanila nag the-thermal kasi may pera sila. Karamihan sa kanila believe that quality is better....kasi yun ang sabi ng sales rep ng CTP or plate.

But once you do an objective test based on PSO, assuming we're using the same ink (ISO 2846) and paper (ISO 12647), you will find that there's no difference with regard to its color, tonal value increase (dot gain), midtone spread, gray balance and gradation that will clearly show one plate type's superiority over its counterpart. Kasi these quality parameters are heavily process based. Well, you can also have a slightly larger gamut volume when you go FM....pero maliit lang ang nilaki niya.

What MAJORITY of our printers in the P.I. should know is that thermal systems will not improve their print quality. Pero if companies strictly follow a company SOP, and have a quality management system in place, moreover, their deep knowledge and daily practice of PSO, then they SHOULD get quality output kahit photopolymer plates and violet CTP ang gamit nila.

Kung maliit na kumpanya ka, and ang mga clients mo do not require a very high dot quality (FM) siguro mag photopolymer ka na lang. After which, invest in training para sa mga staff, and setup a quality management system in your press. Ganun din naman eh, with polymer and violet kaya mo din mag PSO quality. Ang dami nga dito naka-thermal nga....wardi-wardi naman ang print quality. Ang layo ng tirada sa original file na pinadala ng client.

Dapat din, tignan natin kung sino ba ang mga majority na clients natin. What do our customers really want? Do they want a million copies printed? Do they require FM or XM screening? Or they simply want a good quality print (PSO-ISO 12647). Then we pencil push kung nararapat ba ang thermal or violet sa kumpanya natin.

My thoughts, guys.

Just an advise.

You can look at and consider China made CtP's which is a lot cheaper than other brands esp if your concern is initial investments.

With this, you have the option of choosing Thermel or UV CtP.

In UV CtcP, you can make use of your traditional PS plate.

Hope this helps.

ARC

I made a survey from people migrating ctf to ctp. Most of them were using 150 lpi when they are using Films. but when they tried CTP plates. they jump to 175 lpi. that was their testimonies.

larrysison wrote:

Ang disadvantage naman nito ay mas malaki ang gastos mo pag nakapag-plate ka na bago niyo nakita ang problema. Kaya dapat kukuha tayo ng tao na marunong sa color management, linearization, preflight and pdf/x.

Ask for digital proof first before output it on plate.

randy wrote:

GOOD DAY!!

SIR, I HIGHLY APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS AND ADVICES I THINK I GONNA SHOW IT TO MY BOSS AND THEY DECIDE IF WE GO OR NOT MIGRATE TO CTP

SIR LARRY THANKS FOR BEING SUPPORTIVE

Randy,

The best thing to do is try ctp output first from different technology (violet or thermal). Dito mo malalaman kung ano ang best suited sa inyo. tapos pag aralan mo yong maitenance cost, power consumption. mag survey ka na rin sa mga serivce bureau kung ano mga ginagamit na technology, how many plates a month, kung meron bang nagdodown plates at backdown ctp machines (not the processor, but you can also include though)

What is the majority of pinoy printers using now ?Thermal or violet?And what is the price difference of the plates?

Hi larry,,we need CTP machine and nabasa ko ang quote mo dito pede ko ba malaman kung san at kung anu ang contact number mo for some question about CTP machine..thanks,

jill
09302649384

Sandman wrote:

Hi Rands. For me pare-pareho lang ang CTP. Ang dots na na po-produce ng Agfa, kaya din ng Screen. Magkakatalo ka lang kung ano ang light source mo....and also kung ano ang plate type mo.

Para sa production niyo, mas maigi kung mag violet CTP kayo na polymer ang plates. Mabilis siya and matagal masira ang laser mo kasi mahaba ang buhay ng violet. Wag kang magpapaniwala sa mga magbebenta sayo ng Thermal kasi short run lang kayo. Mahal ang operating cost ng Thermal.

What you need to concentrate on is NOT on your CTP device but the workflow that you will be using. Ito ang pinaka-importante Rands. Gusto niyo ba RIP muna tapos pair? Or ipag-pares muna ang mga pahina tapos i-render?

Once again, mag-ingat ka ulit sa mga magbebenta ng mga modules na di niyo naman kailangan. Just pick what you need.

Contact me offline para masuyod natin kung ano ang kakailanganin niyo and kung ang hindi.

Rands, please show this to your bosses. For me migrating to CTP will not increase your quality. Your machines need more care pare.

Larry