THERE IS MORE THAN PRINTING

Asian Printmedia Consultancy Group, Inc.,
Epson Philippines Corp.
Express Coat Enterprises, Inc.
Globis Inc.
Image World Graphic Sales, Inc.
MAN Ferrostaal Philippines Inc.

Invites you to a seminar dubbed as
"THERE IS MORE THAN PRINTING"

When: 27 February 2009 (8:00am to 6:00pm)

Where: Waterfront Cebu City Hotel and Casino
1 Salinas Drive
Lahug, Cebu City
Cebu

REGISTRATION STARTS @ 8:00 AM

TOPIC INCLUDES:

MANAGING COLOR
WORKFLOW IN PRINT PRODUCTION
MAKING THE CTP DECISION
IMPORTANCE OF PROCESS STANDARDIZATION
RECIPE OF A PRECISE COLOR PROOFING SYSTEM
IMPORTANCE OF KNOWLEDGE IMPROVEMENTS
DIGITAL PRINTING - THE PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE

Billy (and others), anong model ng Epson proofer pwede mong i-recommend that would go well with EFI ColorProof XF? Pang 8-up ang kailangan namin na proofer. Thanks.

Just want to add. Ok ba ang Epson if I will use our actual production paper instead of a proofing paper? Balak kong gamitin 90 gsm glossy, 135gsm and 240 gsm semi matte....and standard newsprint if needed.

Pwede na kaya yung mga custom profile niya. If I use paper with Lab values as per ISO...should I still create my own profiles?

Thanks in advance.

Ayos na ayos ang Epson (kahit anong model), kailangan lang talaga ng akmang-akmang profile.

hi larry, the Epson SP 9880 or 9900 printer would fit your 8-up size. The 9880 is basically still the 4 color printer plus the extra shades while the new 9900 is a hifi color printer with extra orange and green ink thus it gives you a greater gamut to produce and match pantone color. the 9880 is suitable for general commercial printing, while 9900 is a very capable for packaging printing which requires special color.

as with all printers such as the 9900 deploying more ink color, the inkjet paper weight and quality becomes even more important. too often do we see (may only apply in the Philippines) users would use a lighter grade paper or low quality (equals very very cheap) that restricts the color gamut capability of the printer ink. reading all the posts you had in this forum, you're the guru and maybe you can stress on this more than anyone else coming from your experience.

i've encountered many printers in the philippines who have migrated to digital proofing that doesn't appreciate the equation of the software, printer, ink and paper. we can educate them all we want, they'll get the point and this would only last for a few weeks. and when another vendor approaches them and offer a cheaper paper alternative, they'll switch over without realizing the huge implication they've just created. change one variable, then colors start not to match anymore, afterwards they started tweaking the machine here and there so colors would try to match until such time they ran out of luck, they couldn't match the color anymore.

as to the ink, as long it's the original manufacturer's ink, then it should be fine. but paper? there are so many different branded and no-brand inkjet paper out there. it's quite a challenge to determine which among from the haystack are the good ones. this of course will require extensive testing of which many of us don't have the facility or tools to determine the paper quality. maybe this is a good subject discussion to spin-off, larry.

additional comment larry. inkjet printer will not print color nicely on regular stock paper compared to inkjet paper, but then again that depends on the expectation of the user.

if you intend to print on newsprint, the epson sp 9450 suits best. the 9900 will be an overkill.

back to your question if it's ok to use actual production paper for proofing. in my opinion, it will not work since the inkjet ink may not adhere or absorb well by the paper thus the color will appear dull.

The RIP can't do the trick?

Thanks COOL i for the great backgrounder on the Epson SP 9880 and 9900. We will try to arrange with the Epson agents here to install a demo unit for a month.

COOL i wrote:

the inkjet paper weight and quality becomes even more important. too often do we see (may only apply in the Philippines) users would use a lighter grade paper or low quality (equals very very cheap) that restricts the color gamut capability of the printer ink...

...i've encountered many printers in the philippines who have migrated to digital proofing that doesn't appreciate the equation of the software, printer, ink and paper...

...they'll switch over without realizing the huge implication they've just created. change one variable, then colors start not to match anymore...

I share your observations that if you change one variable you will have a domino effect.

Common users may not notice this but there are hue, gloss and paper weight variations (due to batch problems) even if we get the same proofing media from one vendor. The variation and deviation can get worse if we buy from other sources. Furthermore, it becomes exponential when we start using production paper since inkjet inks are NOT designed for this paper type.

Nevertheless, this should not stop us from trying other paper stocks that may (or may not) work well with our proofers. The idea is to look for a sweet spot. Maybe it will not work with Paper Type 1 but can be used for Paper Type 4. Or maybe a compromise would be to use the recommended proofing media for Class A clients only and simply use regular paper for our internal customers (e.g. printing requirement from our sister companies).

For those who are adventurous this is something worth looking into. However, a carefully-planned Design of Experiment, backed by statistical data analysis should be in place since this will be the key to help us make accurate predictions about the impact of variable variations. I mentioned in another thread what I learned from our Six Sigma class about the y=f(x1, x2, x3...) principle.

The point behind this value-added analytical mindset is that we would be arriving to a more factual conclusion of the root causes affecting our outcome (y) and thus would allow us to find ways to solve the independent or dependent inputs (x).

If our problem is the rate of absorption or even color saturation and hue angle, then we should find out whether there is a STRONG relationship between the independent and dependent variables (i.e., amount of ink laid down, ash content, sheet thickness, surface roughness, smoothness, gloss, opacity, paper shade, GCR, TAC, CMM, rendering intent, source & destination profiles, temperature and relative humidity, etc.) affecting it, if there is any.

If the problems are within the user's span of control....or even within our sphere of influence (i.e. dull prints, hue angle, rub-off, etc.) then we may be able to solve some critical-to-quality parameters by correcting several inputs. We could create a new profile with a reduced TAC and even with a minimal GCR level, maybe a skeleton black. This will SLIGHTLY increase saturation while reducing rub-off.

By the same token, if the problems are already outside the user's sphere of influence (i.e. fixed ink droplet size, ink penetration capability of paper used, etc.) then it is time to stop drilling down. It's time to throw in the towel and use the recommended proofing media since further efforts will produce no returns. I'm still hopeful we could use production paper (fingers crossed) since we're printing more than 20 monthly magazines published by our parent and sister companies.

I've to admit that it is unlikely that it will conform to the params of ISO 12647-7 proofing standards...but if the hue angle and saturation is not that bad afterall then I guess customers may still find it acceptable.....if we have the gift of gab, that is.

You are right that this is a very good subject for discussion.

COOL i wrote:

additional comment larry. inkjet printer will not print color nicely on regular stock paper compared to inkjet paper, but then again that depends on the expectation of the user.

....also depends on the user's knowledge of the technical issues involved and problem-solving skills.

God bless.

Larry

I just want you to know guys to know that I keep track of your discussions and threads. It's a nice way to get new updates on the latest color management techniques, which are always changing. Innovations happen even before we master one technology. Your posts are great reads.

Whenever some friends asked me what would be the best inkjet printer suitable for prepress proofing, I always said Epson.

The reason is not because it has a very good ink. It is because of its technology-micro piezo. It can simulate very good halftone dots using RIP.

With regards with the inks, I usually tell them that it is best to use original inks but there are alternative out there that they can also try.

Also, in prepress proofing, we don't really need the extra colors--light cyan/light magenta/oranges as we can't proof spot color anyway. Those extra colors will just interfere in profiling.

Just my "haka-haka".

We've used the Canon 12-color and the 5-color iPF printers for proofing. The only difference I noticed in the proofs were the slightly smoother gradations on the 12-color proofs.

Alex Dulay wrote:

Also, in prepress proofing, we don't really need the extra colors--light cyan/light magenta/oranges as we can't proof spot color anyway. Those extra colors will just interfere in profiling.
Just my "haka-haka".

The reason why they (inkjet printer) put the light magenta or light cyan is to provide a better smoother gradation on middle and quarter tones aside from reducing the effect of graniness. Compared to other inkjet that has 12 inks, Epson changed the magenta to vivid magenta to have wider gamut than the 12 inks. Epson has 8 inks.

For packaging industry, Epson came out with another additional ink to provide a better color coverage for packaging industry. The SP7900 & 9900 has the inclusion of orange and green. it has covered most of the pantone colors with an option of spectrophotometer that linearize and calibrate.

Update ko lang we just ordered the Complete Colour Solution bundle from Bodoni Systems, UK. It includes:

Epson Stylus Pro 4880 8 color piezo (A2 size)
EFI XF Colorproof RIP
pressSIGN Pro: ISO 12647-2, -3, -4, -5, -6 verification software
proofSIGN: ISO 12647-7 verification software
EyeOne pro spectrophotometer

Ok na siguro itong A2 tutal sa onionskin ko lang naman ipi-print ang proof. hehehe. Just kidding. Maganda kasi ang package.

presstech wrote:

We've used the Canon 12-color and the 5-color iPF printers for proofing. The only difference I noticed in the proofs were the slightly smoother gradations on the 12-color proofs.

If slight improvement on gradations is all you get from a 12-color printer against a 5-color, then it's not worthwhile to spend all that money for the 12-color printer.

In fact, Canon did a good job in creating so much marketing hype about its 12-color printer but in reality it didn't hold much water particularly in the proofing application. But this does not mean it didn't perform admirably in the photo printing. Since our discussion centers on proofing, i wouldn't vote for Canon printers for this criteria. The same goes for HP, it just couldn't cope with the color accuracy demanded in proofing. For this generation of inkjet printer, my vote still goes to Epson Stylus Pro for proofing.

Alex Dulay wrote:

Whenever some friends asked me what would be the best inkjet printer suitable for prepress proofing, I always said Epson.

The reason is not because it has a very good ink. It is because of its technology-micro piezo. It can simulate very good halftone dots using RIP.

With regards with the inks, I usually tell them that it is best to use original inks but there are alternative out there that they can also try.

Also, in prepress proofing, we don't really need the extra colors--light cyan/light magenta/oranges as we can't proof spot color anyway. Those extra colors will just interfere in profiling.

Just my "haka-haka".

Alex, I agree with you that Epson is current the best printer for proofing due to the piezo technology it uses but thermal heads are catching up to. It's true piezo head can print finer and more controlled dot on the substrate than thermal head, which give Epson the edge over other printer brand. It has its downside though, which is speed. Epson printers cannot match the speed (even close enough) of Canon or HP. But in proofing, the quality and consistency of the print have a lot more weight than speed.

As to the issue of ink, this is another area where Epson again leads the competition. The issue of color shift after the printing is equally a relevant factor in achieving a reliable proof. We don't want to see a freshly printed proof to be signed off by the client, and then the next day or two, the colors have changed due to stability of ink pigment used. Using original manufacturer supplied ink is your best and only bet you ever make to lessen one more variable in printing. If 3rd party ink is used, you always have to wonder if batch to batch quality and hue are still the same (not similar). My take on the subject of using (or even trying) 3rd party, I'd say don't bother even use it.

I agree with CIECAM about the purpose of light colors used in Epson printer. But what about the orange and green ink introduced in the new Epson Stylus Pro 7900/9900 printers? For regular commercial printing, one may not regard this extra ink color necessary but it provides the extra ease to meet ISO 12647-7 standard in proofing.

If the print job have special or spot color to match (commercial or packaging printing), the orange and green ink brings forwar a tremendous advantage in proofing. Try the Pantone color book and see for yourself.

Hi COOL i. Just want to inquire if what we ordered (Epson Stylus Pro 4880 8 color piezo) is capable of printing orange & green to match Pantone colors as you have mentioned?

Thanks in advance.

larrysison wrote:

Hi COOL i. Just want to inquire if what we ordered (Epson Stylus Pro 4880 8 color piezo) is capable of printing orange & green to match Pantone colors as you have mentioned?

Thanks in advance.

The Epson SP 4880 doesn't have orange and green, the only Epson models which have these color ink are the Epson SP 7900 and 9900. Unfortunately, Epson did not come out with a 17" width.

By the way, the Epson SP 7900/9900 will be able to match more Pantone colors (up to 95% depending on the RIP used) than other models of Epson, HP and Canon. But it does not mean it matches the whole Pantone color library.

cool i,

Just wandering, how it gonna be to proof an artwork of cmyk plus 1 spot. I'm a little bit confused with it, the way I understand is one had to make a color profile for spot colors and another profile for cmyk. But I assumed one profile fits all (i.e. cmyk and pantone colors).

Anyway, my simple logic is spot color is called spot color because it is not cmyk. That's why on the proof, one had to specify the Pantone code.

But don't get me wrong, It's great to have a printer that can proof Pantone colors.

Also, I know the purpose of extra colors. I'm an amatuer photog. But for prepress proofing, I just feel that those extra colors are not needed. But if one has money to burn then no problem with that.

Again, just my "haka-haka".

Lex, madaming gumagamit ng ganyan. Nag-apprentice (helper, utusan, , alipin sagigilid, hehehe) ako dati for 3 days sa isang German na taga-Ugra para i-audit yung isang packaging printer dito sa isang probinsya sa Saudi. Epson din ang proofer...7900 yata...can't recall. Required silang mag-proof na nakaka-simulate ng Pantone sa SBS and Gray Back proofing media. Kaya importante itong extra colors.

Sabi ng consultant, ang tolerance mo sa mga saturated na kulay should be within 2.5 dH tapos sa mga pastel colors, or Gray colors naman maigi na wag kang lalagpas sa 1.5 dH.

Kapag ang delta H or delta E daw sa proof ay sobrang taas it only means na di na kayang i-simulate ng proofer ang Pantone colors.

I read an old report written by Miro Suchy, Paul D. Fleming III and Abhay Sharma.

XEROX Phaser 8200, FUJI PictroProof II and EPSON Stylus Photo 2200 were tested and their measured color gamuts were compared. The report concluded that the Epson at that time could emulate PANTONE colors more reliably than the others kasi mas mababa ang delta E nito compared sa iba. Maganda sana kung meron shootout para malaman natin ang performance ng mga proofers na nasa market ngayon.

Master Larry,

Sabi ko nga kung may pera at kung kailangan talaga e 'di go for the best Epson printer na kailangan.

My thoughts are precautionary. Mahal ang tinta ng inkjet printers.

cool i wrote:

Quote :

If slight improvement on gradations is all you get from a 12-color printer against a 5-color, then it's not worthwhile to spend all that money for the 12-color printer.

Exactly! And why there is only slight improvement? Maybe the reason may explain too my point why I said one actually don't need those extra colors.

cool i wrote:

Quote :

As to the issue of ink, this is another area where Epson again leads the competition. The issue of color shift after the printing is equally a relevant factor in achieving a reliable proof. We don't want to see a freshly printed proof to be signed off by the client, and then the next day or two, the colors have changed due to stability of ink pigment used. Using original manufacturer supplied ink is your best and only bet you ever make to lessen one more variable in printing. If 3rd party ink is used, you always have to wonder if batch to batch quality and hue are still the same (not similar). My take on the subject of using (or even trying) 3rd party, I'd say don't bother even use it.

I don't know if learned people will believe you even just for desktop printers. Maybe Epson should add that on the warning when it detected that original Epson ink is not in used. Wake up guys, your markets are not stupid.

Alex Dulay wrote:

cool i wrote:

Quote :

If slight improvement on gradations is all you get from a 12-color printer against a 5-color, then it's not worthwhile to spend all that money for the 12-color printer.

Exactly! And why there is only slight improvement? Maybe the reason may explain too my point why I said one actually don't need those extra colors.

If you are a quality commercial press, those extra color from 12 inks are not necessarry specially the RGB. The reason for the light magenta or light cyan is to lessen the grainy effect of printing. But for photographers view the wider gamut is to have more colors in the picture.

But it does not mean that having more color of ink has a wider gamut. It all depends on exemplication and ink formulation. A 9 ink SP 11880 has a wider gamut than that 12 ink, how much more the SP7900/9900.

Alex Dulay wrote:

cool i wrote:

Quote :

As to the issue of ink, this is another area where Epson again leads the competition. The issue of color shift after the printing is equally a relevant factor in achieving a reliable proof. We don't want to see a freshly printed proof to be signed off by the client, and then the next day or two, the colors have changed due to stability of ink pigment used. Using original manufacturer supplied ink is your best and only bet you ever make to lessen one more variable in printing. If 3rd party ink is used, you always have to wonder if batch to batch quality and hue are still the same (not similar). My take on the subject of using (or even trying) 3rd party, I'd say don't bother even use it.

I don't know if learned people will believe you even just for desktop printers. Maybe Epson should add that on the warning when it detected that original Epson ink is not in used. Wake up guys, your markets are not stupid.

I agree with Alex Dulay that printer does not know if you are using a genuine ink or generic ink. The printer head only lay down the ink how the printer driver wanted it.

But Alex Dulay must agree with me that" It is the user that is stupid and fools himself expecting similar result what the genuine ink can produce using a generic ink". Tama ako d ba?

There are vendors of generic ink marketing that thier ink is the same as the genuine that is STUPID parang salbakuta.


I agree with COOL I that Color shifting determines the color stability of the ink on the paper. Does the generic ink supplier provides you the color stability data even using a genuine paper? Proofing requires stable ink and consistent paper. Action and reaction and reaction. Chemistry lang to he he he. D ako magaling sa chemistry pero may konti akong alam s ink and sustrate interaction.

larrysison wrote:

Sabi ng consultant, ang tolerance mo sa mga saturated na kulay should be within 2.5 dH tapos sa mga pastel colors, or Gray colors naman maigi na wag kang lalagpas sa 1.5 dH.

XEROX Phaser 8200, FUJI PictroProof II and EPSON Stylus Photo 2200 were tested and their measured color gamuts were compared. The report concluded that the Epson at that time could emulate PANTONE colors more reliably than the others kasi mas mababa ang delta E nito compared sa iba. Maganda sana kung meron shootout para malaman natin ang performance ng mga proofers na nasa market ngayon.

Hello Sir Larry,

It is possible that these printers to have a wide color gamut wider than the press. But these printers are using heat or fusing roller. My question is, have you tried boiling a water in constant certain degrees in 20 min? No you cant. I have tried in one of the toner base before. yes it can achieve ISO Fogra 39 but you have to waste at least 20 sheets and on the 70th sheets, you need to recalibrate because the verifier says not OK. It can be use as a content proof or just a hardcopy proof but not as a contract proof.
Consistency would be the issue. but for short run, it may not be.

As for the SP 7900/9900. The target market is packaging. Beacause packaging is more of using pantone color. A commercial press that caters with special color like coke red and pepsi blue, this is the best printer.
Print for pay or photographer.

larrysison wrote:

Common users may not notice this but there are hue, gloss and paper weight variations (due to batch problems) even if we get the same proofing media from one vendor. The variation and deviation can get worse if we buy from other sources. Furthermore, it becomes exponential when we start using production paper since inkjet inks are NOT designed for this paper type.

Nevertheless, this should not stop us from trying other paper stocks that may (or may not) work well with our proofers. The idea is to look for a sweet spot. Maybe it will not work with Paper Type 1 but can be used for Paper Type 4. Or maybe a compromise would be to use the recommended proofing media for Class A clients only and simply use regular paper for our internal customers (e.g. printing requirement from our sister companies).
Larry

Glad you agree the domino effect of the introduction of one variable to an equation. Adding yet another variable would make the process even more difficult to control and predict.

All of us who are passionate about the print profession must evangelize these thoughts: consistency and repeatability. I cannot stress this too much. Anybody can make a conscious choice to use a preferred material (such as ink and paper), be it branded or unbranded, original or 3rd party, ISO certified or not. But the question that they should constantly ask themselves, "would the supplies used in print production still allow me to print in the same manner as it was before and achieve the same quality at similar production cost".

I admire your in-depth technical know how and your conversation pieces in the forum are many of great help to a lot of others who may not be so well verse. However, suggesting to conduct all these tests may be a bit too much for most. Simply said, let us all stick with the practicality of what can be done in a real world which translates to what kind of capability and facility does the Philippine printers have. Many doesn't have the luxury of time, money and knowledge. We all know very well the state of the Philippine printing industry, only a few would care to invest in knowledge. No offense meant to Larry and to others too, and please don't take this out of context.

But many printers would invest their time and money towards fulfilling their personal luxury rather than improving their printing facilities. (Hmmm.... this could be an interesting gossip topic javascript:emoticonp('')

Alex Dulay wrote:

Just wandering, how it gonna be to proof an artwork of cmyk plus 1 spot. I'm a little bit confused with it, the way I understand is one had to make a color profile for spot colors and another profile for cmyk. But I assumed one profile fits all (i.e. cmyk and pantone colors).

Anyway, my simple logic is spot color is called spot color because it is not cmyk. That's why on the proof, one had to specify the Pantone code.

But don't get me wrong, It's great to have a printer that can proof Pantone colors.

Also, I know the purpose of extra colors. I'm an amatuer photog. But for prepress proofing, I just feel that those extra colors are not needed. But if one has money to burn then no problem with that.

Hi Alex,

There is no distinction on creating profiles separately for spot color and process colors. The profile created (based on the ink and paper combination) would provide you the color gamut and should tell you the extent of the color reproduction capability of those materials used.

The proofing software should have the capability to proof a Pantone color or any other spot color. A spectrophotometer is highly recommended be used since you need to measure and compare the Pantone color from the swatch book or reference against the sample (proof print). Not to forget the effects of metamerism and the illuminant you use in this visual color evaluation. Don't forget the tolerance value based on your company or client's standard.

Not all proofing software and printer are created equal, nevertheless you should know what you want, what the customer wants. Once again, it's all about managing expectations.

COOL i wrote:

There is no distinction on creating profiles separately for spot color and process colors. The profile created (based on the ink and paper combination) would provide you the color gamut and should tell you the extent of the color reproduction capability of those materials used.

Great response, COOL i. For critical proofing our media (branded or otherwise) is extremely important. Let's make sure our media's b* value should be less than b*-3. Better to have b*-1, or b*-2.

To have a b* value of -3, -4, or even higher...then we will surely have problems matching our colors due to fluorescent brighteners that will deceive us to thinking that the paper is brighter where in fact it is actually bluish.

COOL i wrote:

Don't forget the tolerance value based on your company or client's standard.

Yup, yup. There are 2 standards we have to choose from. International (ISO), as well as Internal (Customer's preference).

We have clients who don't want ISO but want more colors on their product. He who pays makes the rules.

hi larry... siguro kumbinsihin mo mag-join sa forum si ariel reyes... ugra certfied PSO expert.... certified pinoy... marami syang pwede i-share at itama sa sistema ng priniting... his email address is ar_king17@yahoo.com


bossing ko yun dati

Sana nga sumama sa atin kasi madaming maitutulong yon for sure. Sige, email natin.

Ariel Reyes is very busy person. Call pa lang, di mo mahagilap. Meron na kasi silang Indigo kaya dumami sinusupervise nya.