spoillage allowance for WEB Press

Good Day!

Tanong ko lang kung Ideal ba na sa WEB PRESS ang spoillage allowance is 1,050 copies. ito ba ung Standard or pweding mas mataas o mababa? newie lang po dito sana po may makapag bigay sakin ng Idea kailangan kolang po kasing malaman.

thanks in advance.

Hi Randy,

According to one Ifra Special Report the average "Startup Waste" for web offset presses all over Europe are as follows:

1st Startup = 1,000 to 1,300 copies
Re-Startup = 250 to 300 copies

Most presses run their machine at an initial speed of 5,000 to 7,000 iph.

The reason for a higher Startup Waste during the 1st run is due to a cold press and also many parameters have not been adjusted yet (i.e. tension, cutoff and sidelay adjustments, speed, ink and water curve, etc.).

Re-Startup is a lot, lot lower since you only change several plates for the next edition. Mainit na ang press and halos lahat ng parameters naka-set na.

You can also reduce your daily Startup Waste by installing 3rd party utilities like an auto register and ink presettings. However, this costs so much if you're thinking of short term benefits.

Pero kapag magaling ang operator mo and kapag gamay na niya ang mga ininstall mong gamit....then you can reduce your initial Startup Waste to 750 to 1,000 copies. Re-Startup Waste naman can go as low as 150....at times.

If you have different shifts running your machine they should abide by some rules. Dapat pare-pareho ang Startup Speed ng press niyo. Baka kasi isang operator tumatakbo ng 10,000 iph during Makeready. That means mas madami ang spoilage mo, di ba?

Kami ang normal Startup Waste namin nasa range of 800 to 1,200 copies. Re-Startup naman nasa bandang 200 to 250 copies. Meron kaming auto register and ink presetting.

Btw, where do you work and ano'ng press gamit niyo?

Hope this helps.

Good day!

SIR, maraming salamt po don sa info na ibinigay nyo it will help me alot to explain this matter to our prisedent. alam nyo po kasi ito po na itanong sa akin while we are on the meting at wala po ako nasagot. kasi po nag-susulong po ako ng insentive program para sa mga tao ko sa press parang reward sa mga malasakit nila sa Company at naging basihan ko po ung 1,050 copies for every printing at any job basta WEB machine.

sya nga po pala MANILA STANDARD TODAY ung news paper namin samin din nag paparun ung TANOD, Phil. Chinese News, Parazzi, News Central news papers.

sir, Larry thanks po uli.


randy lumacang (production supervisor)

HORIZON and GOSS COMMUNITY mga machine dito mga luma na ito at decada na rin ang age nito peru maganda parin naman ung prinitng quality namin as you said basta magaling ung Operator maganda ang output . kaso hirap lang sila kasi halos lahat ng unit namin ehh manual operation di tulad ng sa inyo may auto register and ink presetting. CTF din ang Prepress namin peru magaling ang supervisor namin dun.

thanks po uli.

Randy, sino presidente ngayon ng Kagitingan? Dati akong nasa-Standard...circa '95. Kindly send my regards to Sir Red Gancia, Alex Dulay and to my kumpadre Feriel (IT Manager).

Good day!

Sir, Mr. Rogelio Salazar po current president namin. si Sir, Red nag resign na po nasa Inquirer po sya lumipat VP daw po ung position nya ngayon dun. dati ka pala dito sir? saan department po kau? kasi matagal nadin naman ako dito almost 9 years peru bago palang ako na sa current position ko si sir, Red nag promote sakin dati ako assistant ni sir, Alex Dulay sabihin ko nalang po ung regards nyo sa kanila with Ferriel.

Sir, can i have your contact number! here is mine (527-83-51 to 55 loc 241) sa office po yan (mobil 09178592144)

i hope we can have more discussions related in printing.

thanks

Hi Rands. Dati akong Layout Artist diyan. At times naman I also write for Travel and Science & Technology page. I left the Standard to join BusinessWorld.

Kindly PM me your email so I can send you some goodies. I have LOTS of reading materials which you may need.

Good day!

Sir, ito po ung email add ko randylumacang@gmail.com it is important for me to know more about printing specially on this IFRA report kasi nagbabalak sana kami sumali dyan para lang naman malaman namin kung nasaan na ung naabot ng printing namin.

nag email nga po sakin ung comptroller namin about this IFRA pagaralan ko daw at sasali daw kami. sir, pa share naman ng mga report about IFRA ng sa ganun po ay may idea kami.

para makapag prepare lang po in case.

sa lagay po kasi ng machine namin masyadong matanda na ito compare sa mga bagong prinitng press ngayun kailangan po namin ng mga expert advise nyo sir,

thanks po!

Hi Rands. I sent to your email several reports, presentations, documentation, and test pages. Please confirm kung natanggap mo. Paki bigay din kay Alex D. ang iba if he's interested. Email mo lang ako if you have questions pare.

Hi Randy. If you want to join the INCQC, or the Ifra Asia Media Awards you may want to request your company to become an Ifra member first. Then you may want to study the general parameters specified in the ISO 12647-3 docu I sent you. Also, be keen on the following:

1) Paper Delta E : L*3, a*2, b*2
2) Black Ink Delta E : <2
3) CMY Delta E : <5
4) Variation of Mid-tone Spread of CMY : <3%
5) Variation of Mid-tone Spread of CMYK : <5%
6) Deviation of your TVI from the target : <3% per color
7) Chroma Value for Light Gray : Delta C <1
8.) Chroma Value for Medium Gray : Delta C <1
9) Chroma Value for Dark Gray : Delta C <1
10) Register : <.15mm
11) Coverage of ISO Gamut : At least 85% coverage.

OUR EXPERIENCE:
Our paper is considered as Super Bright (SB) newsprint and has an L* value of 84.5. With this value, you get the maximum points as long as your paper is greater than L*79.

But because our paper is brighter than the standards, standardized inks (ISO 2846-2) will not work to our advantage. Although it looks good because our prints are super saturated (due to paper). It's overwhelming since we're printing a LOT bigger than ISO! Then again, it won't give us a Delta E within 5. With the new formulation from our suppliers (SunChemicals & Huber Group) we have had good results. So, paper shade is very important.

As what Frits (APC) has mentioned earlier, you may want to analyze the "practical parts of the press" first. Otherwise you may experience having a density reading of .90 now and then it shoots up to 1.20 after 30 seconds and then goes down to a density of .80 after a minute. These things really happen!

To be honest, I STRONGLY recommend you get in touch with Caloy or Frits before joining the competition. Registration for INCQC should be open by May 2009.

Email me for further questions.

Good day!

Sir, thanks po na receive ko po ung email nyo.

Ooops! Randy, please disregard #3) CMY Delta E: <5.

Delta E limits for CMY not mandatory. You can have Delta E greater than 5. Instead of monitoring the Delta E for CMY they have given more importance to the midtone spread of CMY and CMYK.

Sir, thanks for the info

Sir, another suggestion lang po kasi po it very hard for me explain to my boss na may mga standard procedure ang pagsali dito and i think baka mapahiya lang kami pag sumali kami on the first place wala kaming mga gamit tulad densitometer, spectometer and our machine dont have any advance parameters like auto registration, ink platter, di rin kami naka CTP then ung aming machine luma na talaga can you give me some advice.

unti unti ko pong binabasa ung mga reports na email nyo sakin and there are many things na makatulonh to improve more our printing quality thanks po sa mga info.


thanks po.

Rands. Bakit kayo mapapahiya? After joining either Ifra INCQC or Asia Media Awards you will receive a report of your performance. It will show your results vis-a-vis ISO 12647-3 and also show your ranking. This report is strictly confidential. So walang mapapahiya dito. The idea of the report is to tell us where we are good...and where improvement is needed in our process.

Our company is participating now. From our initial samples we got we think we did fairly good.....but there's no guarantee that we will win. It's a 2-month long competition. So accuracy...and consistency is needed. Anyhow, it doesn't matter if we lose because we know we're competing with the best printers in Asia, and in the case of INCQC....best printers of the world.

What is important is that these competitions change our attitudes. It forces us to study harder and strive for near-perfection.

You mentioned your comptroller wants to join the contest. Then make a list of the "Need to Have".

CtP alone does NOT help you in printing competitions. Knowledge of the ISO standards and competition rules will. Know these 2 muna and then improve your current process starting from the press....then to prepress. Makeovers are not done overnight. Continual Improvement activities are done incrementally....paunti-unti.

Since you don't have the necessary tools you can hire a consultant months before...and during the competition itself.

Having an old press is not an issue. Without structured preventive maintenance in place....and without the right people....then it becomes a BIG ISSUE. If this is the case....forget about the printing competition muna.

I'm glad you're starting to read those special reports I sent you. I have something on newspaper benchmarking but I don't know where it is. I'll send it to you when I find it.

Na-delay ang vacation ko eh and will only be able to come home by July 2009. I'll be in Manila for 2 days. Hope we could meet up soon.

Im willing to help you on this Sir Randy. Pwede rin kita pahiramin ng mga gamit for free. Kaso konti lang gamit ko. We will be needing a lot of help from Sir Larry. Gusto ko rin kasi matuto ng process sa WEB. Kung ok lang sayo pwede tayong mag-aral sabay on this.

Cheers
Ton

Sir Ton, yung list ng instruments mo okay na for CtF Linearization, Calibration and Profiling ng press. Hahanapin ko yung PDF test form na pang ISO 12647-3 certification. Padala ko sayo this week. Sir Randy, para kang tumama sa Jackpot. Pero full maintenance mo muna ang tower ninyo before you start.

Kung ayaw pa rin ng Kagitingan gumastos ng roll for the improvement project....pwede pa rin ito and I will send you the PDF test form designed by Moritz Schwarz of Ifra (now i-Media) na pwede mong ilagay sa ilalim ng newspaper.

While you're running your normal newspaper jobs, measure the solid patches until you get the desired Delta E. Beside the solid patches meron 40% and 80% screen tints so you can measure your TVI (dot gain). Ayan na....andiyan na si Ton (Shutter) nag piprisinta na to lend you the tools. Wala ka nang lusot....may gamit ka na....may consultant ka pa. hehehe.

Btw, magpa-quote ka sa ink supplier niyo ng inks na according sa ISO 2846-2. Ito ang tinta na pang jaryo. Malay mo pareho din ang presyo. Dun ka na sa standardized para di magbago ang mga kulay mo pag nag-overprint na ito.

naku sir, (shutter) nakakahiya naman peru kung talagang interesado ung mga boss ko why not na subukan diba. sige po sir, (shutter) if you are willing to lend us your tolls and you want learn on web process sabay natin pagaralan. thanks sa suporta.

Sir, larry maraming salamat po talaga. i take advance sa mga advice nyo tama po kayo kailangan lang po muna naming full maintenance ung four high namin.

sige po mga sir, since desido naman sila ehh pursigihin ko na rin. total andyan naman po kayo para mag bigay support.

salamat!

Hi Randy! A few years ago (3 or 4 years maybe), I used to go to your printing plant to monitor the runs of a weekly tabloid for which I did consultancy work. If your web machines are in the same condition as they were during that period, I honestly believe that you will have difficulties attaining iso standards and even using a densitometer to measure your patches. A very important factor in improving the quality and efficiency of your press runs is the willingness or capability of management to invest heavily in the rehabilitation of your machines. If they are not inclined to invest, I honestly believe that you will just have to apply other more practical routes to improving your production process.

Sorry if I have to play the role of a Devil's Advocate.

Randy....we're always here to "help". In the meantime, you could start wiring your Christmas bonus to our SWIFT accounts.

hehehe. jok jok jok!

Randy, I have to apologize to you. It occurred to me that the Startup Waste you mentioned (1,050 copies) may be a bit high for the size of your press.

As I posted earlier, most presses in Europe, and also in our case, have an average Startup Waste of 1,000-1,300. But remember that we are using a 10-tower press. This is a long press. Our superstructure is about 19 meters high! The distance from our heatset tower toward the folder is already 170 copies. You could just imagine how high and long it is.

Before 2004 we were also using a Goss Community. I inquired with our chief operator regarding our average Startup Waste back then. He says we waste about 700 copies for the 1st edition.

My apologies once again.

It is ok sir, presstech i'm not mad about your comment but may be is a challenge, even if we did not pass the quality standard at least we try. tsaka ang importante dito eh maipapalam namin sa management na kailanagn na talaga namin mag invest for another web presses if they had get the result from IFRA. we all know that we are competing with the best printers in asia in that case it doesn't matter if we lose we will participating what resources we have now and we will give our best shot, then we will decide after an IFRA reports come up. i think is up to the management if they decide to invest. kami naman gagawin lang namin ung trabaho namin as long na the client have no complain with our printing. although suntok sa buwan ung gagawin namin at sa kagustohan nilang sumali eh i will take advantage for that.

Sir, larry you dont have to apologize siguro po ehh ok nadin po ung allowance spoillage na binigay ko kasi mga mono units naman po ung gamit namin namin at isang fourhigh tower matagal po ung adjustment bago kami maka kuha ng registration. manual impression pa po ung mga units wala po kaming mga auto registration, d rin kami naka CTP, tsaka ung mga pnuematics ehh di naman na gumagana ung iba. but sir, larry thank ulit.

sensya na sir, wala pa kaming christmas bonus ehh..

lastyear ung bonus namin Goods worth of 2k.

i dont know kung ano naman ngaun.

bye keep in touch.

Rands, I sent you 2 Test Forms. You can print these test forms and analyze your slur targets; ghosting, etc...

If you have a quality engineer then ask him to make a process capability study of the print run by Cp and Cpk analysis or by a simple standard deviation charts of your densities, slur, ghosting, registration, etc... If you're going to use Cpk....the ideal value should be at least 1.33 or higher to say that your process is capable.

The reason why I'm asking you to run it so you will know if the tower you're planning to use for the competition is capable or not.

I'll send you by Saturday the instructions on how to analyze the test forms.


Larry

interested ako sa web press operations can you send me a copy of all the documents you are talking about? thanks

[quote="joven nicolas"]interested ako sa web press operations can you send me a copy of all the documents you are talking about? thanks, my email is nicolasjoven@yahoo.com

Hi Joven,

Maybe i can help you a bit sa web operation, may i know kung saang company ka po?

best regards,

Ani-blade

bookpress commercial sir, new comer sa book printing


joven, ty